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Document Type

Podcast

Abstract

It’s a question that reaches far beyond veganism. Whether we’re talking about our health, our relationships, or our values, all of us have experienced the tension between what we know and what we’re ready to do.

We explore why curiosity is more powerful than certainty, the difference between a blocked mindset and an aspiring mindset, and whether we’re responsible for the things we choose not to know.

We also unpack one of my favourite parts of Matt’s work: his distinction between outrage and disgust. Why does one so often make us defensive while the other can open the door to genuine curiosity?

This conversation isn’t about winning arguments. It’s about understanding the parts of ourselves (and others) a little better, recognising why change feels so difficult, and discovering what becomes possible when we stop defending the status quo and start getting curious. I think you’ll find Matt as insightful, generous and hopeful as I do.   In this conversation we cover:

  • Why do good people resist good ideas?
  • What is the difference between a blocked mindset and an aspiring mindset?
  • The Ethics of Ignorance: Is ignorance always innocent?
  • Many people don’t know (the extent of) what happens to animals. Many actively avoid finding out. Is there an ethical difference?
  • Are we responsible for what we don’t want to know?
  • What role does curiosity play in moral growth?
  • Disgust vs Outrage: Why might disgust be more useful than anger?
  • Does outrage tend to create defensiveness? What is the value is disgust?
  • What does abundance actually mean? Not as consumption, or accumulation – abundance as flourishing.
  • What becomes available when we stop defending the status quo?
  • If someone listening is what Matt calls a “vegan in waiting,” they feel the tension, they’re curious, but they’re not ready yet, what would Matt hope they do next? 

Yet again, there was so much we didn’t get to, which simply means I’ll have to invite Matt back.

Publication Date

2026

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